Latest Release

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SkayyHH
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Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-09 17:59

Hello,

I'm using version

Code: Select all

PRE-RELEASE Version 2020.06.15.10 for testing purposes, only
, which I received with a bug fix. What is the latest version and where can I download it?

And another question. The script has a copyright console info that is displayed in the web console. Does it really have to be?

Thanks Kai

SkayyHH
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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-11 20:58

please tell me how to download the latest version of AppGini Helper JavaScript Library: Professional (Download + Updates for 1 year). the download link in the order is no longer valid although less than a year has passed since the order was placed.
Thank you

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jsetzer
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Re: Latest Release

Post by jsetzer » 2020-09-11 22:08

I can see from the version number you have posted above, that you have already downloaded and are already using the latest version. A new version will be available by the end of this year.
Kind regards,
<js />

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AppGini 24.10 Revision 1579 + all AppGini Helper tools

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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-12 05:36

OK. Can I remove the console info from the script? I don't like having the PRE-RELEASE info in the console info.

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jsetzer
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Re: Latest Release

Post by jsetzer » 2020-09-12 06:02

I don't like having the PRE-RELEASE info in the console info.
It is your decision:

You can include...
  1. the pre-release (I have given to you and to very few users for testing purposes), which prints out the version info ...
    or
  2. the latest official public version before the pre-release, which prints out the version info without the string "pre-release" ...
    or
  3. or wait for the final release (end of this year) as all other customers do, which prints out the version info ...
... in console tab of developer tools.

Note that the version info will only be printed out in console tab of developer tools. It will not be visible for "normal" (non-developer) users.

Also note that in many professional, managed enterprise-environments "normal" users are not able to open up developer tools at all for security reasons due to group policies. So, if the string "pre-release" in version info is critical to your application, you or your IT-infrastructure-department can disable developer tools for the normal users by applying a group policy.
Kind regards,
<js />

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AppGini 24.10 Revision 1579 + all AppGini Helper tools

SkayyHH
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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-12 06:26

If the console info is mandatory in the script, i will not use appgini helper scripts. I also think that it is not appropriate that the library is mentioned in the code.info, but Ahmed does not do this with appgini. I think you are putting your library or your intellectual property on a pedestal that is too high compared to Ahmed's appgini, which does a first-class job and has developed an excellent tool that unfortunately too little is seen compared to other solutions. That also relates to your price from the library, which is already towards the price of appgini itself. I wonder what Ahmed thinks about it.

In your answers there are always sharp comments that I don't like, such as "or wait for the final release (end of this year) as all other customers do, which prints out the version info ..." Is that so? Is that what all customers do? Did you ask everyone?

I need a tool with which I can create a solution. I don't want to advertise the development environment or any helper scripts. What for? Who pays me for it? The scripts are then in my opinion can only be used for the hobby area. No professional development environment needs to be presented externally with which a solution is created. There may be a copyright notice in the scripts regarding the reproduction.

With a little more effort, anyone can make the changes without your library. I hope that Ahmed will offer a little more customization options in appgini in the future and will be happy to increase the price for this.

Regards, kai

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Re: Latest Release

Post by jsetzer » 2020-09-12 06:35

Thank you for posting your personal opinion.
Kind regards,
<js />

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Re: Latest Release

Post by onoehring » 2020-09-13 08:57

Hi SkayyHH,

well, to use AGHelper the console is not necessary for one as a developer, nor for the end user. For you as developer the console provides valuable hints with possible error etc. Thus it's a great source of information. If one does not want to use that, that's certainly ok, but will make one's live as developer harder, as bugs are harder (if not impossible) to track down. The console provides a window to the inner workings and helps the developer and Jan to improve the AG Helper and the end product (AG application).
We shall not forget, AG is cheap. This is a decision that Ahmed has made. Providing the people a rapid application development tool for such a price comes with a larger group of customers that it would, if the product would be 10 times the price it is. At this point, I greatly want to thank Ahmed for his decision.
Never the less, this makes AG available to all sorts of people: There is a person who makes his first webapplication, there is some one creating an application in his spare time for his sports team and there are people who actually create applications and sell those. There also might be people who use AG as a starting point for their professional applications which are then improved by custom pages - as the customer requests.
I do not know to which of the different groups of people you count yourself, but I strongly believe, that each of these groups has it's own expectations and preferences what AG and AG Helper should do. You laid down your opinion to which I want to add a different point.

For AG Helper Jan (jsetzer) decided for some price and he knew in advance, that there will be support questions in the forum. He knew, that giving free support here in the forum will not sell even another copy of his software, but may people lead to buy because they can expect support from him. We shall not forget, there is no real support from other companies whose software we use on a regular basis. I have never had any support from Adobe, not Microsoft when I used Dreamweaver or Access. Actually it's the small companies, the small developers who take the time to support their products.
Let's assume any amount of money Jan (or any other developer) makes per hour (coding, supporting, coaching). Now please evaluate yourself, how long it takes to write a single post for Jan (or any other developer). How long does it take to create screenshots and documentation. Have you done that yourself? If yes, you will know, that this very timeconsuming and all we do is pay Jan once (maybe for a year). Does this force him to put up with any of our questions? I guess not, otherwise I would probably have had support from the companies mentioned above.

Let's look at the users of AG (and AG Helper) I described above. The first group I described may not need AG Helper, nor does any of the others to create a basic web application. As forum posts suggest many people are still struggling with database design, which makes me suggest, that even more struggle with JS. AG Helper is a great tool to quickly change several things in your AG application - without knowledge of JS or such. Place a simple, documented piece of code in the web application and you are done. This indeed enabled inexperienced first-time and spare-time developers to pimp their application, make it nicer in no time (with no knowledge). For a developer (who actually sells applications) this means quick solutions. And quick is important here as this means less cost for the customer. As someone who develops with AG there is a tool being used already: AG. If one uses an image manipulation program or a code editor there are other tools. Such a tool is AG Helper: It saves people the frustration of seeking help on the web or in (the) forum(s). It enables people to quickly solve problems without learning JS first. It probably enables people to do things with their AG application that they would never be able to to without AG Helper.

If you have ever created free software and/or sold self created software, you will probably know, how much time support and further development can take. You know, how hard it is so sell software and you will know, that you need to account time for support and the time to do things and to learn thing in the end to the invoices your customers get. They will be happy if you can lower the cost. If you do now agree, I must assume, you are not even using AG as you are a stick-to-the-basics type of person who enjoys coding in a simple editor. Your postings though suggest, that you have been using AG as a help to develop. Maybe see AG Helper as another help to accomplish some more things.
And really, I do not even remember the price for AG Helper, but it's probably less than you (if you sell your web applications/software) earn in one hour. So, please, keep that in mind as well as my argument above, that free (!) support from jsetzer is something this forum should appreciate.

Of course it's your opinion you provided in the post and that's fine. Maybe you should consider actually not using AG Helper anymore - as your posting suggests to me. Just develop the functionality you need yourself. I wouldn't wonder, if postings like yours make Jan reconsider his offer of free support and/or licensing. He could very well offer paid support only - and this would be very bad for users of AG helper and the AG forum community.

I also want to use this opportunity to thank pbötcher and jsetzer for their continuous support in this forum in general. Inho without you, AG would be much less interesting to the users. Please keep your work up in the forum. The AG forum would not have the quality it currently has without you. Also thank you Ahmed for your support and, as I mentioned, for a product which could be priced much higher.

Olaf

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Re: Latest Release

Post by David Soul » 2020-09-16 05:52

I also want to use this opportunity to thank pbötcher and jsetzer for their continuous support in this forum in general. Inho without you, AG would be much less interesting to the users. Please keep your work up in the forum. The AG forum would not have the quality it currently has without you. Also thank you Ahmed for your support and, as I mentioned, for a product which could be priced much higher.

Olaf
You've captured this in a way much better than I could Olaf, thank you! As one of the neophytes here I found my image reflected in your comments quite clearly and concisely. I stand in awe of the "Superheros" here as people willing to help out people such as myself as we try to take on complexity without having the basic education/ experience to do so properly. The learning curve is very steep and you all have been a tremendous assistance to me as I find posts here that reflect a way of doing something that I wish to do and I trace way through to find a working solution for the organisation I am devoting my time to.

Without AppGinii, Jan's Helper Code and the pieces of code I "liberate" from this forum, my chosen charity could not have a system that fits our needs - but with it we do!

Thank you all!
David HC Soul

Core::AppGini 5.93
Plugins: Search Page Maker + Summary Reports + Mass update plugin
Bizzworxx: AppGini Helper JavaScript Library + AppGini Helper Detail View Plug-in + AppGini Helper pack
Utilities: Global Search utility

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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-16 20:21

I agree with your statements. but that wasn't the point. I was concerned with the self-portrayal of the helper scripts in relation to appgini and a condescending way of expression that I have often noticed. In my opinion, critical questions are not welcome from the author of the scripts. There are people who are grateful for feedback and are constantly improving and others perceive everything that is not a praise as personal criticism. I can't handle that. I am very positive and not negative. I'm trying to come up with appgini a commercial solution. Appgini has integrated various 3rd party tools. Is there a js. that his copyright shows in the console, uses an obfuscator to protect his intellectual property and thus slow down the app or does Ahmed do that?

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Re: Latest Release

Post by onoehring » 2020-09-17 05:20

Hi SkyHH,

interesting explanation. I would suggest a different point of view.

First, Jan is obfuscating his code - ok, but Ahmed does not have an Open Source AppGini. Open Source does not mean free - so there is a similarity.

Second, Ahmed (with App Gini) is providing a tool for one to create something new, completely from scratch. This means there has to be some kind of individual developer work. AG Helper however does not help anything if you have not yet developed your basic application.

Third, Ahmed does not put any license costs of such on a product developed with AG. Jan does neither. Now you may say, Jan limits developers to 5(3) domains for each sale and "only" one year of free updates ( https://bizzworxx.onfastspring.com/appgini/ ). Seriously: Ahmed's license is insanely great, but Jan's price is also nothing else than a joke as this means 10,- / year / customer. Even writing this reply cost me more if I would count time against money here.

Fourth, Jan does not sell, let's better say offer his tool in a dark back-alley, but in the forum. By now not even in some thread anymore, but in an official sub-forum. So Ahmed is ok with Jan's work and licensing as well as pricing model. One is able to read all the docs for AG Helper in advance and read ahead in the forum.
Just an opinion from self experience: May not say much, but visiting another developer in person shows there is a relationship and an understanding of work for the same thing and in the same direction (image source Jan's website)
Image

Yes, there are differences in cost and licensing. Those differences are to be acknowledged. Every developer, as I tried to say in my previous thread post, has reasons why and how to price/license his products - and, again my very personal opinion - I am very glad, that Jan decided to make his helper accessible to others: Afaik - this was not planed in the first place. Thank you Jan.

PS: For your commercial product: Does it matter so much, that AG Helper shows Jan's copyright? You are free to place your's right above his - or just acknowledge, that a product you are using want's to take it's own credit. Just look at other software where you find exactly the same hints.

Olaf

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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-09-17 14:19

I respect the work of jan. without question. Maybe I couldn't express myself properly. I live in Germany and my english is not really good. When it came to the price, it wasn't about the amount, but about the relationship between the price of the scripts and AppGini itself. For me, public copyright is a no go. Certainly not for others. For me, AppGini could cost 1000, -. The basic concept, speed and database updates are awesome. I would then like more flexibility in the design and a consistent layout between frontend and backend, no advertising or notices like Twitter that you have to remove manually. So a real developer tool for saas solutions. Appgini has, in my opinion, the potential for it. I've used many other expensive tools, but all of them have more serious show stoppers. buggle.io is very good but you can't host it yourself. PHPRunner is also very good, but only handles database updates via phprunner and not via the admin like appgini.

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Re: Latest Release

Post by a.gneady » 2020-09-23 09:39

Hi. I'd like to thank everyone for the very insightful feedback. Just wanted to highlight a few points. Like Olaf mentioned, Jan and me are on a partnership agreement, where we agreed on the sales process for Jan's plugins, the code obfuscation of the plugins, and the pricing. The pricing scheme for Jan's plugins is in line with the pricing of AppGini plugins, where a plugin costs ~$50 (and actually the Inline Detail View plugin costs less than that).

Regarding code obfuscation, which I guess is the main concern in this thread, most commercial software is closed source as you already know. There are some few exceptions (including the apps generated by AppGini and plugins developed by BigProf Software) -- but again, that's a personal choice I made and is not the case for the majority of commercial software.

Most developers would not feel OK with revealing the source code of their commercial products for various reasons, many of which are very legit and logical ... and I don't feel that AppGini JS Helper plugin causes any restrictions to functionality by being closed source/obfuscated. The copyright notice in the console is not, imho, a big deal to the majority of users, even if the generated app is being sold to other users. There are many examples of widely used commercial products that use third-party components and do indicate this in their copyright notices or About pages.

One last point regarding pricing. I have no intention in the future to increase prices to different levels than the current ones (maybe tiny increases within 10-20% to keep with inflation ... but not 100% for example) ... I realize this might not be the best decision from a financial perspective, but one of the things I love to do is making our tools accessible to as many people from every country as possible. And with the current pricing level, I feel satisifed to see this happening: AppGini and the plugins are used by small businesses as well as large ones, by students as well as professionals, and by non-profits as well as for-profits. I intend to keep it that way as long as I'm in business :)

Thanks once more for all the insightful feedback.
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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-10-20 19:43

Hello Ahmed,

thank you for your feedback. I was on vacation... I really like appgini. You know how long I've been a customer. I am now in the process of porting a commercial software to an appgini app.

That is not easy. Appgini is so wonderfully intuitive and fast, and updating the tables when changes are made is awesome.

Therefore I try to create the app with appgini, despite some restrictions that would be required and what I would have e.g. with PHP Runner or Scriptcase. Appgini is simply cleaner. But I'm limited in the design, the admin doesn't harmonize with the frontend and I always have to remove the appgini hints ;-)

Jan's helper scripts are very helpful and great for the project. Only I just can't get any hints like e.g. use in the console. Jan has no problem with his own solutions, it's his own copyrights. He wouldn't want to have my copyright in his apps either ;-)

I just don't know that at helper tools for the software development of end customer solutions they represent their own copyright to the outside world.

It's the way it is - no hassle :-)
Warm greetings, Kai

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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-10-20 20:53

I guess I'll just remove the console notice. With that I don't change the copyright notice in the script :-)

Kai

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Re: Latest Release

Post by SkayyHH » 2020-10-20 22:46

i just looked again at the copyright notice in the script.

"Reproduction and distribution without written permission of the vendor is prohibited."

Do I have permission when I buy the scripts?

When I use the scripts I publish and duplicate them permanently. With every page view ;-)

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